What do you make of this. Please share your thoughts with me and your classmates. As we did over the summer, please feel free to interact with earlier posts.Remembering with difficulty why I had come I went over to one of the stalls and examined porcelain vases and flowered tea-sets. At the door of the stall a young lady was talking and laughing with two young gentlemen. I remarked their English accents and listened vaguely to their conversation."O, I never said such a thing!""O, but you did!""O, but I didn't!""Didn't she say that?""Yes. I heard her.""O, there's a... fib!"Observing me the young lady came over and asked me did I wish to buy anything. The tone of her voice was not encouraging; she seemed to have spoken to me out of a sense of duty. I looked humbly at the great jars that stood like eastern guards at either side of the dark entrance to the stall and murmured:"No, thank you."The young lady changed the position of one of the vases and went back to the two young men. They began to talk of the same subject. Once or twice the young lady glanced at me over her shoulder.I lingered before her stall, though I knew my stay was useless, to make my interest in her wares seem the more real. Then I turned away slowly and walked down the middle of the bazaar. I allowed the two pennies to fall against the sixpence in my pocket. I heard a voice call from one end of the gallery that the light was out. The upper part of the hall was now completely dark.Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.
Monday, January 26, 2015
Bizarre at the Bazaar
Finally, our narrator has arrived at Araby! But things are not working out as they were supposed to. (How rarely they do!) Joyce gives us this ending:
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I really liked the ending of this story, as I believe that it ties all of Joyce’s prior ideas and motifs together. Something that draws my attention in this passage (as well as throughout the entirety of the story) is the turning out of the lights. I feel as though the idea of light and dark has been sprinkled throughout separate passages and scenes. For example, in the very beginning, the narrator depicts the scene of himself and Mangan stepping out of the shadow to see Mangan’s sister, whose “figure is defined by the light from the half-open door”. And then again, as the narrator is in the priest’s dark-tinted room and suddenly sees the light of the lamp from Mangan’s sister. In this specific passage, the moment that the lights in the bazaar are extinguished, the narrator begins to feel anguish and anger. He sees himself as a creature driven and derided by vanity. Saying all this, I believe that the light serves as a constant friend and/or enemy to the narrator. When he is surrounded by light, he is able to allow his mind roam to places of enchantment and imagination. However, when the lights are turned off, he if forced to face reality. In other words, he at first sets free his mind this glorified idea of his love (Mangan’s sister ) as well as the Araby, but when he actually experiences the reality of the Araby (the fact that it is nearly closed when he arrives, and the workers appear disinterested and boring), he is left with a feeling of emptiness. There is this contrast between his fantasized reality and actual reality. I think that we all go through this tragic conflict between what our minds conjure up vs. what actually is, as we find that life might not be as magical as we think it up to be.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, this is what I pulled form this. Sorry it’s so long—I have an issue with concision!
~Alyssa Hurlbut
Good call! You'll find light (and vision and blindness) as motifs throughout Dubliners.
DeleteAfter reviewing the final segment of this short story and the actions of Magan’s sister, I give credence that the woman working at the Araby shop and the sister’s actions were not too unalike. I interpreted the boy’s anger as a derivation from a feeling of realization that the sister spoke to him out of a similar sense of duty (rather than genuine interest or concern) that the cashier did. This could certainly be the cause of the young mans tribulations as it is evident that he had developed a strong sense of compassion for this girl. It would also be logical to assume that the sister spoke out of a sense of duty as she overheard him incanting the phrase 'O love!' a multitude of times. Perhaps she spoke to him because she felt awkward given she had heard him speaking to himself and at least wanted to acknowledge his existence. In the final sentence Joyce states that the boy was “driven and derided by vanity; and [his] eyes burned with anguish and anger”. This final declaration by the author elucidates the point that I wish convey. Before his trip the bazaar he was confident that his relations with the sister would bloom. After his sudden realization of how the maiden might have felt, he was filled with discontent and extreme disappointment in his previous euphoric notions.
ReplyDelete--Jacob Burns
I think it's safe to say that the narrator felt a lot more fro Mangan's sister than she did for him.
DeleteAt the end of this reading, I just felt for the poor guy. I mean, all he wanted to do was go to this one fair type event and the struggle he had getting there was frustrating. First, he has to wait for a ridiculous amount of time to get money from his uncle to go. Finally when he does, he goes and the store has nothing that he wants and the woman at the store was just a jerk. I've personally had days like this, and when they happen I get overwhelmed and externally aggregated and basically "give up". Although, unlike him, I would have given up at the point when his uncle came home late to give him money. Everyone has there own breaking points. "...I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity..." I'm not quite sure what he saw in himself as "vanity" but when he states "...my eyes burned with anguish and anger." I understood that he was upset with the fact that things were not going according to how he planned, and scenarios like that can make anyone burn with anguish and anger.
ReplyDeleteTo piggy back onto Catarena's idea I think he was disappointed in himself for letting psychical possessions rule over his life. Throughout the story he was waiting to get money from his father to go to Araby's and when he got there nothing caught his eye. Not to mention the sale's lady didn't care whether he bought anything or not, she just cared about the conversation with the two men. I think her actions opened his eyes to his own behavior and that's why in the ending he felt such strong anger at himself.
Delete"Vanity" -- Joyce was raised a Catholic in Ireland, so there are religious overtones. "All's vanity", that is, we're too consumed with ourselves and our material world.
Delete“Gazing up in the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.”
ReplyDeleteAccording to Dictionary.com, vanity is excessive pride in one’s appearance, qualities, etc. – the definition we’re all familiar with. But it is also defined as something worthless, trivial, or pointless.
At Araby, the narrator realizes that love, specifically his love for Mangan’s sister, is worthless.
For the entire story up to this point, the narrator is hopelessly in love. It plagues his every waking moment, from when he walks to school behind Mangan’s sister to when he goes to the market with his aunt.
The conversation between the narrator and Mangan’s sister is the turning point of the story. He goes from just dreaming of her to actually living out a reality where she and he have interacted, and he now has an intent towards her. He believes this love is the greatest of endeavors, saying that “the serious work of life… seemed to me child’s play, ugly monotonous child’s play.” He works his life around being able to go to Araby to buy her something, sure, apparently, that this is his purpose – that he is driven by love.
But at Araby, nothing is like he thought it would be. Most of the stalls are closed, and he can’t find anything to buy her. Everything is dark. His uncle forgot that he wanted to go to the bazaar, and once he arrived at the bazaar, it seemed that the world had forgotten about him as well.
I think it’s this sudden feeling that he was just a small person, that the world didn’t even remember him despite his honorable and all-consuming love, that shocks him into the realization that love is not such a big concept as he thought.
At the very end, the narrator equates love with vanity. All of a sudden he saw himself as someone who had been not only driven, but also ridiculed and mocked by, something as worthless as love.
Does he still love Mangan’s sister? Maybe. But he no longer believes in the noble cause of love.
I really like this ending. Physically and verbally the story doesn’t come to a complete stop, but emotionally, it’s perfectly complete. He starts of infatuated with a girl, with the idea of love, and the story goes through the entire cycle of a person’s first love. From infatuated to depressed, the narrator spans the full range of feelings brought on by experiencing love for the first time. Everyone goes through it, feeling like love is the world’s purpose, that their love makes them superior to everyday doings, that all of a sudden everyone must know them and their purpose. And then comes the realization that you are still as small and rather insignificant being as you always have been, and you are back to square one – just a small kid in a big world.
I have no idea if we can comment on other people's responses but I just read yours after posting mine and I really think you did a great job with your analysis and I really really think your point on the word "vanity" was awesome ! Just wanted to say that ! see you in class =]
DeleteFirst of all -- Dictionary.com? Seriously? We're Merriam-Websterers around here.
DeleteAnd I wouldn't go so far as "worthless". But he certainly had a naive, innocent view of it, which takes a hit. He's growing up. (And it can be tough growing up.)
And, yes, Jenna. Comment away!
1). I do very much like that Serena resolved "vanity" into two different components. The narrator travels quite some way along the "pointless axis" and the "shallow axis"; the magnitude of boy's error seems to grow by the moment until his epiphany catapults him back to "square one".
Delete2). It's clear to an attentive reader that the narrator has forgotten about the world-- he's dumping "the serious work of life" for Mangan's sister-- but, as Serena said, the world became ignorant of him as well. That's a good point to make.
3). With all due respect to Mr. Webster and to Mr. Mac, I am forever indebted to Dictionary.com ... it delivered me from many a trial (and by a trial I mean an eighth grade vocabulary list).
All well and good, Leonard, but there come a time to "put away childish things".
DeleteAt first read the ending seems more ambiguous than it turns out to be. After reading it for the first time, I flipped the page expecting at least another paragraph. However, I grudgingly accepted that this was Joyce's descriptive conclusion. There are certain parallels between the condition of the building the Araby is held in and the condition of the boy's emotions towards Mangan's sister. The light of longing for love (Mangan’s sister) has been forcibly distinguished.
ReplyDeleteThe boy realizes that he too is set on the “normal” pace of life. He gets no special privileges and will return home to play with his elementary friends once again. Unfortunately, he has been defeated by a force that existed solely in his mind. Actually, the defeat of his hope for love is the realization that the so called love was in his mind only. Life goes on. I believe that everyone goes through this harsh recognition of reality. Nonetheless, we are all better for it.
"After reading it for the first time, I flipped the page expecting at least another paragraph."
DeleteA lot of people have that experience when first reading Dubliners.
After pondering the ending, I do think it suits the story. Although it may seem ambiguous , I did not leave me feeling incomplete . After all this is a story about a young boy being consumed by his new-found love and when he realizes his efforts were driven by foolish desires he is no longer in love. So, what more is there to the story ? The story is over at that point and the author artfully ends it with a vivid picture of our main character's disdain. In particular , I enjoyed how Joyce hinted at this ending . "Remembering with difficulty why I had come, I went over to one of the stalls and examined porcelain vases and flowered tea-sets." Before this sentence, I was not entirely aware of the main character's true emotional condition. However ,after reading this sentence I back-tracked and re-read the story again before continuing further and realized that Joyce hinted at this by describing the main character's irritation and the dark, almost depressing surroundings. Now that I was aware of this, I continued reading and my thoughts were reinforced by the rest of the ending.( His vague interest in the woman's conversation, the woman's forced kindness when speaking to him, the repeated descriptions of all things dark, and of course the very last sentence in the story) With all this being said , I enjoyed this story , and the ending . It is a good piece about young and crazy love , as well as a good story about losing innocence and understanding the realities of your life.
ReplyDeleteHow old do you all think the narrator is?
DeleteI thoroughly enjoyed the story “Araby” as it manages to capture the simplicity of childhood. Day in and day out the narrator spends most of his time longing for love with Mangan’s sister. One day she acknowledges him and asks if he will be going to Araby. Since she is not able to go, the narrator believes that if he goes and purchases her something nice he will get a chance with her. The way the narrator hopes and fantasizes over something that is purely in his head, completely depicts the logic and innocence of children. In the end of the story however, the narrator takes a trip to Araby where he is forced to have an unpleasant confrontation with reality. It is at Araby where he realizes that the love that he once believed in never truly existed at all. Everyone is forced to face reality at some point in their lives and I believe that Joyce did a remarkable job in capturing that.
ReplyDelete"She acknowledges him". Very good.
DeleteYes, love it turns out is vapid, not holy.
Initially after finishing the story "Araby", by James Joyce, I was confused. I didn't quite understand the ending at the point where the text reads, "Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger." The brief and abrupt conclusion had me thoroughly puzzled. However, upon further thought and deeper investigation, I discovered the message that Joyce was attempting to convey. He is making the point that vanity is a universal issue. It occurs in all societies and will continue to plague humanity forever. The unidentified narrator realizes this as he fails to purchase anything from the bazaar to bring to Mangan's sister. He realizes that his love for Mangan's sister is pointless and his trying to impress her is vain. He becomes frustrated with himself as well as society for being focused on such petty issues. He sees that his entire life, from his love to his school, is vain. This story focuses around the loss of innocence of the narrator because he loses his childish belief and hopefulness and gains the understanding that vanity is an ever-present issue.
ReplyDeleteI think Joyce's ambiguous ending, or ambiguity throughout the entire story, was a crafty choice because it stresses the fact that vanity is universal. By not revealing the narrator's name and simply referring to his love as Mangan's sister, Joyce is saying that vanity happens in everyone's lives, including yours. Anyone can fit the mold of an anonymous character with an unnamed love. With that said, I enjoyed and appreciated this story as it made me think a little more deeply than I had planned to on a snow day.
Just curious -- what type of further investigation did you do?
Delete"Joyce was attempting to. . ." There, you just picked one of my literary scabs (and I've got a few). That always sounds to me like "I guess what that no-talent chump was trying to say was. . ." James Joyce is a heavyweight. He does what he sets out to do.
I really enjoyed the ending to “Araby.” Although it was all together ambiguous, I found the ending to be very representative of human nature in both positive and negative ways. In the era we are living in, one that is dominated by social media and the selfie craze, it is so common for people of all ages to be overcome by vanity. Whether it is worrying about the number of likes you receive, or getting caught up in the beauty of an older, sophisticated girl, many people face this internal struggle. I truly applaud Joyce’s ability to write something that has proven to have a universal applicability for many years, while still entertaining the reader. Even though this is not an overly positive aspect of our modern society, I observed the actions of the main character to be somewhat heartwarming as well. He brilliantly exemplifies some of the most common characteristics of being young and full of life. At first he is completely overtaken by his affection for the illuminated girl who he rushes by each morning; he is willing to go to Araby by himself late at night and stalk the window just waiting for her to appear on the porch. Although I believe he had the best intentions, he soon fell victim to reality. He went from cloud nine thinking he had a chance with Mangan’s sister, to being a wild “creature driven and derided by vanity” who realizes everything he has done has been in vain. Dedication and blind enthusiasm are some of the most becoming traits in younger people, and I really enjoyed reading his trials and tribulations included in the end of the book, despite the unpleasant ending, simply because I can remember a time when I acted just the same.
ReplyDelete"I observed the actions of the main character to be somewhat heartwarming as well." He's twee, almost. I'm sure this story is based on Joyce's own life, and he gives us an honest look at what he was at that age. (More honest than I could be about myself at that age.)
Delete"The illuminated girl". Yes, in that one description she is. Very good.
I found the ending to "Araby" appropriate. Though our narrator had the best of intentions, his plan wasn't meant to be. He arrived in Araby too late and with too little money to buy anything worthwhile. Not only that, but the narrator also realized his promise to Mangan's sister was insignificant. He came to the bitter conclusion that all of his efforts to get to Araby were wasted. He was unable to buy a gift, but even if he had, it may not have mattered. He had no choice but to head home empty-handed. The vanity he was referring to was the fantasy he had created surrounding Mangan's sister; the idea that if he went to Araby for her, it would somehow lead to mutual affection. There was no better place to end the story. With this ending, Joyce really highlights how the narrator changed. Leaving the story in the "unnatural" point Joyce ended "Araby", you feel the whiplash that the narrator experienced when he snapped back to reality. Since the reader expects the story to keep going, this ending makes much more of an impact, ambiguous as it is.
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit whiplash-ish, but Joyce has carefully been leading up to it at least since his uncle comes home drunk.
ReplyDeleteI think the ending of this story is something a lot of people can relate to, especially those who have experienced “young love”. The narrator spends so much time infatuated with Mangan’s sister, only to be exposed to his own folly in believing that it was truly a great love. I think the light and darkness idea plays a significant role as well. Whenever he is looking at Mangan’s sister or is in his own world of imagined happiness, there is light. All the positive things he focuses on in the story are attached to a sense of light. When his uncle doesn’t return in ideal time for him to go to the bazaar and when he encounters the girl at the stall and his feelings are changed, there is darkness. I think I’d be pushing it to say that the author was trying to make a statement about the darkness of reality, or at least it would be cliché, but I got a little bit of that sense while reading.
ReplyDeleteI think the narrator’s experience in Araby was disappointing for him because of the discovery he made about love, however I also think it showed a lot of maturity for a boy to be able to recognize that he had become “a creature driven and derided by vanity”. For someone to be able to say this about him/her-self takes a lot of self-reflection and honesty, as a creature driven and derided by vanity is probably not something one desires to be.
I think the author does a good job relaying his ideas about growing up and the realization that the world is bigger than vanity. Getting caught up in it is something that everyone has to go through and figure out, but eventually we get to the place where we realize that love is not about vanity, like the narrator did at Araby. It can be hurtful and frustrating at first, but is a necessary step to take in overcoming that internal struggle.
I liked the "self-reflection" bit of your commentary; it shows more empathy than sympathy.
DeleteI mean, Joyce is likely directing us to sympathize with the boy- as in "awww...I feel for the poor guy"- but it takes a little added effort (pushing, as you put it) on the reader's part to empathize with him- as in, "ahhh...I understand why he acts so".
I really enjoyed this story, and I think Joyce’s ending accurately expressed the theme of the dangers of idealization. The issue with dreams and fantasies is that they tend to reflect a very limited view of reality. You can romanticize the future, fixate on the positives, and end up creating an unrealistic fantasy world that you can never attain. This is what I believe the narrator did. He was unhappy in his current life (we get glimpses of an unhappy home life at the end of the story), so he fixated on one thing that he thought was purely good. In one particularly telling scene, the narrator described being in class and being unable to avoid thinking about going to Araby and impressing his dream girl. “I had hardly any patience with the serious work of life which, now that it stood between me and my desire, seemed to me child's play, ugly monotonous child's play.”
ReplyDeleteHowever, he didn’t really know this girl. In fact, she is not even given a name in this story. She is not really characterized at all, because she could have been any girl. He admitted that he had never spoken to her before their conversation about going to Araby, yet just glimpses of her were enough to fuel his fantasies. The narrator built up a dream in his head of an idealized girl, and he connected a trip to the magical bazaar of Araby to this girl. In his mind, both of these things were perfect. However, once he actually went to Araby, the reality of the situation hit him hard.
I think that at the end of this story, the narrator is angry because he is ashamed. He has realized that the romanticized visions in his head, of Araby, of Mangan’s sister, and of love, do not reflect any sort of reality. As other people have mentioned, being forced to face reality can be disheartening.
Spot on. Good job.
DeleteThe words "dangers of idealization" and "disheartening" brings to my mind Jay Gatsby's forlorn gazes at the scintillating green light across the bay.
DeleteAt least the derangement in this story came from and was addressed the boy himself, as opposed to from and by a disgruntled mechanic-gunman.
After reading Joyce’s “Araby”, I had many thoughts on what the story meant and was left with a general feeling of puzzlement. However, after I read through it a couple more times I began to grasp the meaning behind the story of young love. I believe Joyce’s short story is meant to demonstrate the frustration of living one’s life in a cycle of repetition and drudgery. I believe Mangan’s sister is representative of both the mundane life the narrator lives, and the hope for an exciting new path to take in his life. The girl he adores, Mangan’s sister, is never named anything that would identify her as an individual. I believe this anonymity allows the reader to understand that the narrator’s frustrating adoration for this unreachable goal is symbolic for unsatisfying consequences of life. I believe the ending is very appropriate, while I did find it unsatisfying, because Joyce uses it to imply that everyone struggles with the frustrating lust to have new experiences.
ReplyDeleteSam Pallis
Though I cannot say I enjoyed the ending to “Araby”, I did find it an appropriate representation of “young love”. Would I have preferred a happier ending where the guy gets the girl? Yes, but that is not logical in the context of this story nor is it expected with the narrators childlike innocence. A happier ending cannot be expected due to the parallels between the boy’s emotions and the description of the light. Upon examination of the symbolism of the light, I felt as if I could recall a line from “Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night” By Dylan Thomas and apply it to this story. In the poem it says “Rage, rage against the dying of the light” which is what he is physically doing, trying to buy Mangan’s sister the much needed token of his affection before the Bazaar closes. He is also fighting that dying light emotionally since Mangan’s sister was the “light” in the narrator’s life. Every time Mangan’s sister was described, the sister’s figure would be “defined by the light from the half-opened door”. The so-called light was his love and sense of longing for this girl. The end is a stark reminder that it is possible he idealized this love and that Mangan’s sister could have only talked to him out of pity or obligation like the woman who helped him at the Bazaar. James Joyce makes it clear to us when he has the narrator come to realize he was “a creature driven and derided by vanity”.
ReplyDelete~Grace Lavertu
But the light he thought was a brilliant star just turned out to be a small aircraft flying over.
DeleteI really enjoyed "Araby" as I found it to be a solid representation of young love. The narrator is so enamored with this girl, he goes so far as to call her his love and promise her gifts. He sees the promise as something holy, its made in a church after all, but within about 24 hours, he's gone sour about it. His attitude toward the lady's wares could be a good parallel to his feelings about Mangan's sister; "...though I knew my stay was useless, to make my interest in her wares seem the more real." He realizes the situation he thought would play out was just a fantasy and was by no means fated to come true and there's little he can do about it. I also found it interesting how no one was ever named or aged. This could be a device to keep the theme broader so it doesn't apply to some John and Jane in the story. Many people know the sting of young love and can picture their own similar experiences.
ReplyDelete--Kelting
To me, the narrator seems fixated on ideals more than reality. This is a characteristic shared by many people even today. When he sees Mangan's sister, without knowing anything about her or her personality. He hangs onto the ideal of her beauty rather than the mundane, everyday occurrences of his everyday life. Because of this, he wanted to "proclaim his love" so to speak. He told her that he would get her something from Araby, and she didn't discourage him in the slightest. It almost seems to me as if she was using him and taking advantage of his vulnerable position.
ReplyDeleteHe also comes across as if he doesn't feel quite good enough for her, as if he has to prove himself. "I took my seat in a third-class carriage of a deserted train." This to me symbolizes that he is so enamored with her that he feels like a third-class citizen in relation.
The abrupt ending was interesting. It was as if the narrator came to the realization that Mangan's sister was using him and did not have the same feelings for him as he did for her, which infuriated and depressed him, a very normal reaction to a realization such as this. In most TV shows, movies, and other media, the thought of someone coming to a realization is often related to a "light bulb" illuminating, whereas in the case of the narrator, his realization was brought on by a light bulb. "Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity;" Rather than looking upward at the light for guidance, he looks upward at the darkness. I thought this variation from the usual "light bulb goes on, suddenly I know the answer to my problems" was very interesting, and stimulated a very interesting mental picture in my head.
Using him? Well, that's something I hadn't fully considered...I'm glad you brought it up.
DeleteAlso- I liked your mention of the "reverse lightbulb effect". I had kind of, sort of, vaguely thought about it that way, but your entry helped organize and consolidate my thoughts.
I truly put a lot of through effort into enjoying this short story by James Joyce, yet I could not end up happy. I researched everything in question, such as pictures of a bazaar, the location of Dublin, and some analysis' of the story. Even after all that, I do not feel overjoyed with the way the story turned out. Joyce grasped at the seems of what the rawness of young love truly is. Being that the story was intended to be a short story, it worked, yet I feel as though too much was left for reader interpretation. Without the evidence that I had gathered after reading, I would have been left very confused and disappointed. The story would have been yet another frustrating piece of literature where I was ready to scream at the narrator for not "growing a pair." However, in response to the ending, Joyce set a prominent example and addressed a pressing issue of "young love" everywhere. The last line "Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger," truly encompasses the anguish of young love. It is in that line alone where the narrator realizes everything he is doing is in vain. When I understood that line, I began to piece the story together. The narrator realizes that no matter what he may bring back for Mangan's sister, it will not mean as much to her as it does to him. He realizes that his efforts are useless and what he is doing has no purpose. In a sense, he loses his innocence. That is the power that I found in the last few lines of the story. That was a perfect way to end the story because the narrator ended up "growing up." Almost immediately, I could relate to the narrator's struggles as far as young love. I could relate to what it felt like to performing actions that were never going to be good enough. I recognized the pain that came with being young and in love. That is what saved the story in my opinion. That is what brought me to think strongly about the story in it's entirety. So overall, I did appreciate reading the story, despite my previous opinions.
ReplyDeleteMake no mistake -- there is no better pure writer than James Joyce, but Dubliners is not the place to go if you're looking for happy.
DeleteAfter reading the ending of “Araby” I found myself slightly confused at Joyce’s choice of wording in the final sentence, as I felt it didn’t quite match the tone of the rest of the scene, or the overall theme. In this final scene of the story we are described this melancholy feeling of hopelessness and misery as the narrator’s world becomes dark, in both the literal and metaphorical sense. The sentences leading up to the final one read as followed: “I allowed the two pennies to fall against the sixpence in my pocket. I heard a voice call from one end of the gallery that the light was out. The upper part of the hall was now completely dark.” We get a sense of how brokenhearted and defeated the narrator feels while the world around him becomes cold and dark as he loses his idealism, yet right after this is where Joyce changes the mood of the scene. The final sentence of the story reads as: “Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.” Up to this point darkness was the symbolic representation of the narrator’s sorrow and feelings of futility, but now he describes his feelings not as sadness but anger. He talks about his eyes burning; a verb which makes the reader imagine light, a contrast to the rest of the scene was described with dark. This is where I found myself confused at Joyce’s message as we are told to feel a depressing loneliness throughout the ending only to be told instead to feel a burning anger in the last sentence. I could see how this would fit if the message of this story was about the anger that stems from the loss of idealism, but I was lead to believe the message was more about to the sadness of it, which is why I felt so strange about the narrator’s sudden emotional change. Regardless whether or not Joyce wanted us to feel anger, or sadness, or both, or perhaps even neither, we’ll never know, I found this short story very enjoyable nonetheless.
ReplyDelete-Ian
Many people have commented that this story is a representation of the idealism of young love, while I viewed it more as a representation of the dissolution of a false reality that the main character had constructed. Unlike others who seemed to be charmed by his portrayal of devotion and innocent admiration that the main character had for Mangan’s sister, I was unable to get through the story without feeling angst. When I read the story a first time, it was more to get a general gist of what was happening, so I didn’t really have an opinion on it.. When I went back and reread it, I was able to immerse myself more deeply into the storyline, and the ending hit me harder than I anticipated. I feel as betrayed as Joyce’s main character when he comes to the realization that she had only spoken to him from obligation, and that his dreams held no merit. Though, I suppose that this is a testament to Joyce’s writing, as he managed to get me as invested in the characters love life as he himself was. Knowing the ending, I felt unable to relate to the characters innocence, and almost sad. It was similar to how I felt when we read Flowers for Algernon. While Charlie seemed content in his life, I found his ignorance painful because I had knowledge of what was happening to him that he didn’t. Whether the ending is ambiguous or not, it made me feel thoroughly jerked about and in need of something with a happy ending.
ReplyDeleteThe ending of "Araby" was described to us as "ambiguous," so that's been a reoccurring point in a few of the responses I have looked over so far; however, I find it interesting that, in spite of this, the conclusions people have drawn are (for the most part) quite similar.
ReplyDeleteRegardless (or maybe building off of that), I think that the ending portrays a universal feeling that's likely relatable to many readers. Mr. Mac mentioned that there's a high probability that the story was inspired in large part by Joyce's own experiences. The gist of the matter is that the narrator is losing some of his childish naïveté. He realizes the harsh reality of interpersonal relationships via the interactions between himself and the shopkeeper as well as the shopkeeper and the men. Amid his disappointment with an event he so eagerly anticipated (and the events that led up to it i.e. his uncle's behavior), he sees a mirror image of the disappointing reality of his relationship (or lack thereof) between him and the girl with whom he is so enamored. The let-down that ultimately was his trip to Araby is reflective of the disappointment he feels upon realizing that he would be fooling himself to think that his "love" for Mangan's sister is to be anything more than a childish crush. Generally, the story conveys a message about accepting reality, which is a lesson that must be learned as a facet of growing up, whether we like it or not.
On the topic of the boy's age, I imagined him to be grade school age - maybe 10ish? I'd be interested to hear if anyone thought something different, though.
I thought that the boy was around 12 or 13 (not too far off from your interpretation). I understand it as such due to the fact that this is age when a boy would start to build emotional (young love) connections to their female counterparts. I think if he were any older he may not have attached his heart to the young girl so quickly due to a confluence of factors (i.e. he may have been slightly more mature and puberty may have made him more self-concious).
DeleteWhile many of my peers state that they liked the ending to "Araby" by James Joyce, I disagree. Throughout the short story, it seemed as if Joyce intended to put both the boy and the reader through a series of obstacles or road blocks before the final destination. As soon as the boy decided to go to Araby, he was tortured until he arrived at the event where he realized that the whole journey was a waste. The day after he talked with Mangan’s sister, he was antagonized day by day, waiting for Saturday to come. During school, he was unable to think about anything else; “…and by day in the classroom her image came between me and the page I strove to read. The syllables of the word Araby were called to me through the silence in which my soul luxuriated…” When Saturday finally came upon him, he painstakingly waited, tormented by the cries of his friends playing outside. In addition, he was forced to listen to Mrs. Mercer’s blathering and bide his time until his uncle stumbled into the house. Furthermore, the boy had to sit through his uncle’s dinner, in which he had to be remind twice before he reluctantly handed over the money for the boy to begin his journey. Formerly, upon the boy’s journey to the Araby, it seemed as if he was in slow motion. The reader desperately wanted the boy to end up winning over the girl’s heart with an object he bought for her at the bazzar but became significantly disappointed when the boy was too late. The boy’s adventure throughout the short story was full of hope and angst. However, in the last passage, it became clear to the reader that he was unable to buy anything and came to the realization on how the girl may have felt and was filled with anguish and angered. His whole journey seemed to represent how he was waiting for Mangan’s sister to notice him. I was disappointed in the ending because I was saddened that regardless of all the boy’s efforts, he was unable to be successful in both his journey to the bazzar, and his journey to win the girl.
ReplyDeleteGoodness! Wallace Gray had a lot more to say about Joyce's subtleties than I do, I'll say that. But I'll offer my two cents (pence?) nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteOn the first page, the first word I considered of note was "glowed". As many of my fellow scholars have noted, this selection does has to with the whole light-dark motif. It becomes fairly obvious by the end of the story that is glow is more reminiscent of a lightning bug than of a well-fueled lantern.
"Lightning bug" doesn't last.
Neither does the bazaar, for by the time this misguided narrator punches his ticket in, his opportunities are few- many stalls have already closed. Then...well, the British (the longtime oppressors of Ireland) are present. Then, Joyce proceeds to liken porcelain creations to "eastern guards", guards looking to prevent the boy from realizing his dream. Joyce then dips his brush into his palette of light and dark symbolism and lays another stroke: a large swath of the light goes out.
Out with it is the lightning bug's flash. The images that had powered the boy's imagination dim. In their place: "vanity".
Now, vanity can mean self-centeredness and lack of success. The youthful Dubliner is vain in that he lets his mind wander from his studies to thinly veiled fantasies in the church. He also acts in vain: his mission is unsuccessful.
In my opinion, the kid got he not what he wanted, but what he needed. The world is not a kind place, and it's better that he learns sooner or later. "Poetic justice", I think, is the best way to describe the ending. It's fair, not likeable.
Apparently my first post didn't publish properly, so I'm going to give this another go without missing anything I said the first time. After going through all the comments, I found that my views corresponded with yours the most closely, Leonard. I found your analogy regarding the lightning bug to be enlightening (...get it?), but I have to give Joyce credit about the way he uses subtle imagery to create a very vivid mood.
DeleteFirst, Joyce builds up anxiousness within the narrator and reader when the narrator's uncle fails to show up on time to escort them both to the bazaar. Personally, that feeling as a child is terrible, as we generally want to work on the principle that we get what we want whenever we want it. This is just the first lesson of life that the narrator will learn before the conclusion of the story.
Next, when the narrator finally does arrive at the bazaar, he encounters a "weary-looking man". Now this is Joyce's subtle use of imagery at work. With just a simple adjective, we now can assume that the day has already run its course, and this man is tired from a day of work.
Soon after, the narrator is found observing the nearby stalls, most of them being empty. While the weariness of the man was a subtle hint, this is a major hint that time has run out for our narrator. For all the excitement that he felt, he was now feeling emotions of dread.
At this point, he is mustering all the strength he has to approach one of the market stands, hoping that perhaps something good could come out of this endeavor. However, with the demeanor of the lady working there and the "eastern guards" creating a sense of intimidation for the narrator, we can now clearly see his realization of his own idealism and foolishness.
Finally, we come to Leonard's analysis of the lights going dark, which correspond with the day coming to an end. As time ran out, so did the narrator's ideas of love run out as well. From a personal standpoint, I agree with Leonard's statement that it is better to learn sooner than later, as it is easier to build a strong child than to fix a broken adult. There were many that felt unhappy with the way that the story ended. For me however, I do not see it as an ending, but a new beginning for this child and his understanding of what life has to offer and teach.
I enjoyed "Araby" and found its messages about vanity and society particularly interesting. The first thing that stood out to me was the death of the priest in the house where the main character is currently living. The priest is described as a good man who left his money to charity and other belongings to his sister. Now the inhabitants of the house seem to be the antithesis of the beliefs and values of the previous resident. The boy does not live with his parents, his uncle is a drunk, and the boy is, as he puts it, "driven and derided by vanity." The boy is only driven by his own desires, which leads him to the bazaar, which is itself a symbol of vanity.
ReplyDeleteI believe this is emphasizing how vanity and the goal for personal gain are destructive to society. The priest represents the good, selfless people who work towards making society better. He represents the core religious beliefs such as charity and selflessness, while his death marks the beginning of a troubled, selfish household. The new residents represent those whose only goal is personal gain. This is also represented in the bazaar where people from all over the city meet to further their own needs, whether that is making money, buying an exotic item, or in the narrator’s case, impressing a girl.
The story is about a child chasing fantasies of girls and exotic items and lands, only to watch them get crushed by the reality of an unforgiving world. The theme I got from “Araby” is that selflessness is an important value that society cannot function without, and the sole focus on the individual will lead to an imbalanced society, with broken families, just like the boys in the story.
After I finished reading "Araby", I didn't know what to make of the ending. It seemed harsh and it caught me by surprise. However, now that I have read it through again, I believe that it is a good and appropriate ending to a harshly realistic story of young love and fantasies. The narrator has a "confused adoration" towards Mangan's sister. She is described with reference to light in the story, which suggests that she is the sole light in the narrators dark and monotonous life. Because of this adoration, the narrator wants to win her over by going to Araby to get her a gift. After his uncle is late coming home and forgets that he wished to go to the bazaar, things start to fall apart for the narrator. This is where I began to feel that the ending was not going to be a "happily ever after" situation. He gets to the bazaar too late and is not able to get anything worthwhile for his "love". This is where the harsh reality sets in for the narrator. In the bazaar he "heard a voice call from one end of the gallery that the light was out". Here, the light symbolism appears again, and this time it suggests that his fantasy of getting to be with Mangan's sister was over. This truthful and realistic ending that I enjoyed is capped off with the narrator thinking, "...I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger." I think this is a perfect account of young love and fantasies in general. Everything doesn't always end the way you want. More often than not, people end up disappointed and angry with themselves, just as the narrator was in "Araby".
ReplyDelete-Ben Clough
"Araby" was the kind of story that I had to re-read a few times to actually understand it. The first time I finished it, everything felt very cut off and I was completely unsatisfied by the ending. Scrolling back up to the top of the page, I realized that Mr. Mac had warned us about the ambiguity of the ending. The next time I read the story, I tried to put myself in the place of the narrator to understand the whole thing better.
ReplyDeleteI picture the narrator as being a young boy, probably between the ages of 10 and 13. The way that he is all consumed with his love for Mangan's sister and cannot focus on school or any of his other daily activities strikes me as the characteristics of a young love. The narrator seems to lack the sense of control and maturity regarding this matter that someone older would possess. Additionally, the narrator also spends time waiting for his uncle to get home to take him to the bazaar and give him money, so the fact that he still requires some looking after and supervision also leads me to believe he is young.
Now, back to the ambiguity of the ending. Once I determined more clearly what the narrator was feeling and who they were, the ending made much more sense to me. The bazaar is closing and going dark, and the narrators mindset has completely shifted. I believe that the description Joyce gives is meant to leave the reader to draw their own conclusion. It forced me to understand his character and really think about the ending rather than him spelling out for me exactly what happened. I realized that the simple closing down and darkening of the bazaar symbolizes the ending of the narrators young love and innocence. The narrator comes to the realization of his foolishness to believe in such frivolous young love, and he sees what a vain effort it was even from the start to go to the bazaar for Mangan's sister.
I feel that the ending of "Araby" is harsh, yes ambiguous, but mainly harsh truth. The narrator holds this "confused adoration" for an older girl whom he never finds himself in conversation with except for one time. He spends his time finding himself thinking about her, at random moments. He is very confused with the new concept of young love that he is feeling for Mangan's sister. This intense crush runs his mind, and when he finds himself in conversation with her about the bazaar that she cannot attend he does not even remember how he held the conversation. He offers to buy her a gift, although she does not give any reason for him to buy her a souvenir. Up until the day of the bazaar the narrator can only find himself wishing the time away until the day of the event comes along. Even then almost everything stands in his way from attending the bazaar. His uncle forgets that he has asked permission to go so he ends up late. Once he arrives the bazaar is closing, the lights are turning off and stores are closing. Earlier in this short story Mangan's sister was a light to his life. But now as he arrives to Araby he realizes that this love is unrealistic. The closing of the bazaar symbolizes the ending of this adoration he holds for this girl. The ending is so important because we see the change of heart the narrator experiences. As he journeys to the bazaar he is determined, once he arrives he faces the harsh reality that there is no way he could end up Managan's sister. It just couldn't happen, he is angry over this realization. I can only imagine the stupidity and frustration he feels with himself for trying so hard for something that couldn't be. It was his first encounter with young love, it was an unexplained fire in him and then it died out.
ReplyDelete-Meghan Noble
"[R]uns his mind" (a few lines down) really hammers the point home, much more so than "runs through his mind". I think that was very well-phrased, I look at that aspect of the story (his daydreaming in class, etc.) a little differently.
DeleteTo me, the conversation that we overhear is very important, too. Here he gets to see "the real thing" in action -- and it's all vapid and silly and pointless. So this is Love?
ReplyDeleteI think that the ending was about how the narrator felt hopeless when faced with the realities of love. He thought that he was in love with Mangan’s sister and was filled with the hopefulness and naiveté of youth. He thought that he could go the bazaar and get something for Mangan’s sister. When he got to the bazaar and looked at some of items for sale, he realized that he wasn’t ready for love. When he got to the stall, he didn’t know what to do. He couldn’t buy anything, and he didn’t know what to buy anyways. Even though he had a lot of money for someone of his age, he couldn’t afford to buy something nice for his crush.
ReplyDeleteI think that the ending was also about adulthood. Like a lot of the other posters, I pictured the narrator to be in his early teens, around 12 or 13. He was in the midst of his first crush and desperately wanted to act like an adult. However, when he got to the stall and heard the conversations, he realized that he wasn’t feeling true love, just a childish version of it. He didn’t understand the realities of real love. The shopkeeper seemed to realize that when she asked him if he wanted to buy anything. She knew that he would probably not be able to afford anything and only asked him out of duty like the narrator realized.
The last part of the story, when the light goes out in the bazaar, was extremely symbolic to me. I think that it represents how the light of the narrator’s innocence and childhood went out just moments before. The narrator realized that he was vain to even think that he could have a relationship with Mangan’s sister, and he was mad at himself for getting his hopes up. The darkness of the night was a fitting backdrop for the narrator’s emotional turmoil.
"He realized that he wasn’t feeling true love, just a childish version of it." Well, childish, but in a way the two "gentlemen" and childish. The narrator has a highly idealized and romantic view of love.
DeleteI found the conclusion to James Joyce’s “Araby”, (to restate all of my peers) ambiguous since it was so open to interpretation by the reader. In fact I even kept scrolling to see if there was more to the story. This abrupt ending clearly shows the author's intention to draw attention to this particular section. While I agree about the ambiguity of the ending I also think that it is possible to draw several inferences from the final scene in the bazaar. I construed the ending as a message about young “love” and maturation.
ReplyDeleteThe narrator travels all the way to the bazaar in hopes of finding a gift so overwhelming that Mangan’s sister will fall utterly in love with him. As objective viewers we are able to see that this is clearly a fantasy. Joyce is trying to show us that young “love” is often not based on any rational reason, but is simply a natural feeling that occurs. The narrator barely knows this girl and her name is not mentioned. This alludes to the fact that the narrator is simply experiencing his transition into adulthood and will “fall in love” with any girl he sees.
The other aspect of the narrator’s life that may have influenced this irrational behavior is the rough home life and dull winter that were mentioned in the beginning. His uncle may have even been drinking,” I heard him talking to himself… “. All this may have caused him to go by himself to the bazaar. Yet, once he actually arrived at the bazaar he was hit with the bleakness and reality of the situation. The emptiness and darkness of the bazaar hit him and brought with it the harsh reality that this gift would not really get him what he wanted.
-Josh Barnes
As I read this short story I found that I did not believe there should be any more too it, no matter how ambiguous the ending may have seemed. In fact, this ambiguous ending was especially appropriate for this story because the narrator's feelings and thoughts were so unclear at the time.
ReplyDeleteI imagined him to be young, most likely entering his teenage years, and feeling attraction to a woman for the first time. I do not view this crush as love, but more likely curiosity and intense interest. He knew very little about this young lady, other than what she looked like after watching her for days on end. When he states that he was "a creature driven and derided by vanity" I believe he is realizing that his attraction to this lady is purely superficial and he is ashamed of himself because he is seeing for the first time how love and attraction can deceive a person and drive them to do things they wouldn't otherwise consider. I believe the ending is appropriate as it leaves the reader wondering and unsure which is representative of how I imagine the narrator is feeling at the time.
-Kylie Bouley
"after watching her for days on end. . .' Didn't you find it a little creepy when he 's laying down on the floor and watching her leave, then following her?
DeleteI enjoyed the story “Araby” and thought the story was very relatable. I think everybody can say that they have idealized a situation, only to be disappointed when it isn’t everything you want it to be. Then you get mad at yourself, just as the narrator does at the end when he realizes how blind he has been. He had dreamed about going to this amazing and exotic bazaar to buy a gift for the girl he loves to realize some harsh realities. One being that this girl probably won’t ever love him back, and the second being that the bazaar is one huge let down. He shows up way too late to do any real shopping, and he is too poor to afford anything nice at the open stands. After a day like that, most would feel the distress that the narrator does.
ReplyDeleteAnother thought I had was the narrator might not even love Magman’s sister, but fools himself into thinking he does because he wants some excitement in his life. He had never talked to her before their one conversation, so it’s not as if they have a real connection. The boy’s life also seems really lackluster. Everything he does is predictable. He goes to school, plays in the neighborhood, and when the sister calls for Magman they hide in the shadows until they are forced to go home. I feel as though he focused on being in love with the sister to avoid the realization that his life is like a song stuck on repeat.
Gabby Heilman
"Very relatable". This is for the whole class, not just Gabrielle, so I hope more people read it.
Delete"Relatable" -- another one of my increasing list of bugaboos. We used to say "something I could relate to". Relatable, to me, means "something I can relate (or tell) to someone else". This other word is really "relate-to-able".
(My problem, more than yours, I'm afraid.)
Upon finishing this story for the first time I was completely lost. I understood the general plot of the story, but I didn’t know what I could possibly post about this. Nothing about the story struck me as particularly interesting or worthy enough to write about. So, I reread the story, but this time paying really close attention to the small details. I was really surprised about how much I missed while reading it over the first time. I actually really, genuinely loved this story and what it had to say. I know the whole point in this was to comment about the ending but I couldn’t help but comment about the house as well. Like Mike said, I found it really ironic how they turned a house that used to be so pure and filled with hope and passion into something dark and gloomy. I also really liked how they kept mentioning that the “back drawing room” was the room that the priest had died in. Every time he entered the room he brought it up.
ReplyDeleteSo now on to what really matters, the ending. I believe that at the end of the story when he walks away from the booth and into the darkness, symbolizes that his love for “Mangnan’s sister” wasn’t true. He keeps talking about how often he finds himself thinking about her and how much she means to him. So much so that he’d be happy to get her a gift from a fair that she’s always wanted to go to. After a series of unfortunate events take place, he realizes that he wasn’t as in love with her as he thought. This was clear when he simply walked away from the booth without getting anything for “Mangnan’s sister”. However, it was also clear to me through subtle hints throughout the story. Like the quote, “I had never spoken to her, except for a few casual words, and yet her name was like a summons to all my foolish blood.” He talks about the importance of her name, yet the readers never actually know her name. This could be due to the fact that by the end of her story she becomes so meaningless to him that she doesn’t even deserve a name. Like many of my classmates said, this is a great representation of young love. When you experience love at such a young age you are so oblivious to the harsh surroundings of the outside world. All you can focus on is the other person and how amazing they are. However, as you age, you experience things that change your mind and take you into different directions each with a new perspective. You begin to realize that what you thought was your entire world, really isn’t that important.
"A house that used to be so pure and filled with hope. . ." I guess so. But the detail that jumps out at me is that the priest died in the back room. Can you imagine moving into that house (especially at that age)?
DeleteAs the story progressed, towards the end I couldn't help but feel bad for the narrator because he was so intent on going to the bazaar and getting Mangan's sister something from there but most of the stalls were closed and he wasn’t able to buy anything from the few that were open. Although his 'love' for Mangan's sister is clearly just infatuation since all he recognizes are her physical attributes and hasn’t made an opportunity to get to know her, I wanted him to be able to get something for her in the hopes that it might spark an actual conversation amongst the two of them.
ReplyDeleteThe end of the story was left ambiguous, and personally unsatisfying, so I took the liberty to imagine an ending that would wrap the story up for me. I thought that the voice came from Mangan’s sister and then they lived happily ever after. Obviously that probably wasn’t the case, especially given the context of the last sentence of the story. The narrator describes himself as angry and anguished and I think that it could be (in my ending) that he hoped it was her voice but within the short time of his realization that it wasn’t he had become aware that his ‘love’ for her was not as significant as he had built it up to be. He also describes himself as a creature driven and derided by vanity. The use of the word vanity was thought-provoking because of its potential to be used with multiple definitions, one of which being too prideful about oneself. I think that this definition can work in context because he has thought about her so much that he actually has lost his sense of reality when it comes to their ‘relationship’ and his pride is destroyed when he realizes that his pursuit of her was futile. Speaking of futile, another definition of vanity can potentially be used in this context, that being the quality of being worthless or futile. He could have felt empty at the fact that he was so engulfed in his own fantasy and hopes that he was chasing something that didn’t exist.
The ending to "Araby" was disappointing, to say the least. I did not, however, dislike it. I was, as many were, expecting the story to continue so that we could read on about the progression between the narrator and this dream girl of his. Instead, it ended rather abruptly. In addition, I was fairly confused after reading the ending the first time around and had to re-read it a few times to fully understand what was actually going on.
ReplyDeleteThis being said, I did not mind the story as a whole, as it served as an accurate depiction of the feelings and experience of young "love," or infatuation, to state it more realistically. I think we have all been through a time in our lives when we have idolized one person and put them up on a pedestal solely based on that person's physical characteristics or on imagined ideals of "what could be" if we had that person by our side. This makes the story universal, in the sense that most readers can relate to the emotions of the narrator.
Referring back to the ending of the short story, I did appreciate the way in which the author used feelings to end the story rather than just reading to us in words how it ended. Joyce utilized a very show-don't-tell method of expressing this. Such an ending is successful in the sense that it gives the reader a very clear implication of what happens without actually saying it. The ending implies that the narrator comes to the realization that he has been admiring this girl based on nothing other than appearance and that coming to this bazaar to buy her gifts is a mere waste of time.
Nazareth
Sidenote: I like how interactive this is! It's like a social network for intelligent discussion; it's a refreshing contrast to sites like Facebook.
I found the ending to "Araby" to be disappointing and almost lacking in substance. With all of James Joyce's detailed descriptions of the settings and the feelings that this boy had for this girl, the sudden stop of an incredible flow with a simple "No, thank you" is almost anticlimactic. However, it tells the more common side of having feelings for someone in life. The last line or so expressed the narrator's true feelings about being rejected. In fluff stories that are supposed to make you feel good about the world, the ending is either love at first sight for both parties, or the two involved remain friendly. This ending remains true to life, and even offers a feeling of acceptance of anger and sadness because of unrequited feelings.
ReplyDeleteAddressing the story as a whole, I enjoyed it. It was definitely worth the read, and I most likely wouldn't have even known about it if it wasn't assigned. The amount of detail that Joyce puts into even the smallest of story bits intrigues me. It shows how much he really felt writing wasn't just a pass time, but a part of his lifestyle. The way that he wrote it, you grew a not-so-but-somewhat personal attachment to the narrator, and felt sorry for him at the abrupt rejection of an ending. Personalizing characters is one of the hardest things to do in prose writing, yet one of the most important if you want a successful and interesting story; and I think Joyce managed to do just that.